Jews For Jesus Founder Debates Rabbi Tovia Singer

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Interview with Jhan Moskowitz (Jews For Jesus) and Rabbi Tovia Singer

Dave Glover: Jhan Moskowitz – he’s from the Jews for Jesus and Tovia Singer from Outreach Judaism who’s calling us from Israel. We’re going to take up the whole issue of whether Jesus is indeed the Messiah and you’re going to get a chance to talk these great Biblical scholars. It should be a lot of fun. We’ll be right back – Dave Glover Show, don’t go away. [After the break] Welcome back 97.1 Talk Dave Glover Show. Thanks for being with us. So this next hour promises to be incredibly interesting. It’s something like 95-97% of people polled in the US believe in God with a capital G whoever or whatever that god happens to be. Here on The Dave Glover Show for the past seven years, we’ve had the priest and the rabbi segment once a month where we have Fr. Jeff from the Catholic Church and we have Rabbi Shmuel Greenwald from ancient Torah who just come in and they talk about all sorts of things. During one of the segments probably a couple of months ago, the Rabbi said something that I just never had in my mind before. Growing up - and I know that my two guests can hear me; I’m kind of giving them a sense of how we got here – growing up as a Protestant-Christian-vacation-Bible-school kind of upbringing, I had always been taught that the Jews rejected Jesus because while they were looking for a Messiah, they were looking for a deliverer, sort of a full armor who would just go in and kick the butts of the Romans. When Jesus came and he was very meek and he talked about loving your enemy and turning your cheek, they said “No, no, no, no, this is not the Messiah we were looking for” and they missed the boat. That’s all there is to it. The poor Jews, they missed the boat. Jump on the Jesus train they didn’t. Rabbi who I have great respect for explained “Well, it’s not quite like that. According to the Torah, according to us the Jews, the Messiah was never supposed to be the son of God. It was never supposed to be a supernatural being. It was never supposed to be a deity incarnate. It was supposed to be a man, a natural human man that came as the Meshiah. Jesus was saying “I am the son of God” that’s why the Pharisees reacted the way they did – strongly because that was heresy. To say that you are God incarnate, that’s not possible, that’s not anything close to Messiah.” I never had that thought in my head before. I said we had to do an hour on this. We need experts; find them for me. Becca did that and I’m going to bring them on one by one here. Let me bring on Jhan Moskowitz. Before I bring Jhan on, he was a Jew for Jesus before there were Jews for Jesus. Literally before the incorporation in ’73, Jhan was volunteering for the organization way back then and no one better than to talk about this that Jhan. Jhan Moskowitz, thanks for joining us, we appreciate it. 

Jhan Moskowitz: Thanks for having me. Before we say anything, let me offer you my condolences. I hope and pray that St. Louis buys back Budweiser. I’m sure it will happen but hang in there, guys. 

Dave Glover: One of those things you wake up and see the front page and like Tom said “I’d never thought I’d see this happen”.

Tom: It hurts.
Jhan Moskowitz: Don’t give up, guys.

Dave Glover: If Sam Adams is now officially the largest brewery, isn’t that crazy?

Jhan Moskowitz: I don’t know if it’s appropriate for us to be talking about beer but I know how much you guys love it.

Dave Glover: It’s St. Louis.

Tom: Yes, it is. 

Jhan Moskowitz: Thank you for having me, Dave.

Dave Glover: You bet. Rabbi Tovia Singer is a fellow talk show host. He has a radio talk show in Israel. He is the founder and director of Outreach Judaism which is an international organization dedicated to countering the effects of fundamentalist Christian groups and cults who specifically target Jews for conversion. I’ve ran into a couple because most Christians would be along the lines where I was growing up. They’d say “Oh, boy how did they miss that?” There are those that say “We need to go get God’s people. We need to go, we need to convert them.” Let me bring Tovia on here. Rabbi, thank you so much for taking some time today. We appreciate it.

Rabbi Tovia Singer: Hey, it’s great joining you here from the Holy Land. 

Dave Glover: From Israel. Technology is amazing. Okay, let’s start with Jhan. You were raised a Jew in the Bronx.

Jhan Moskowitz: Yes, correct.

Dave Glover: At some point you became disenchanted with your former religion and you became a seeker and you found your answer in Jesus.

Jhan Moskowitz: Well I wouldn’t put it quite like that. I wasn’t disenchanted with being Jewish. I think I had moved from a simple, childlike faith in my conservative Orthodox upbringing. Like most adolescents, I started searching. It wasn’t really until I was in Israel in ’67 that I made an earnest search for a personal God. The personal search took me to many places. I mean part of it was the Kabbalah Jewish mysticism and eastern mysticism and I eventually found the Jewish Messiah – Jesus – and recognized that that’s who and what I was waiting for. I’m in love with him. 

Dave Glover: Jhan, what have you been taught about Jesus by your family and your temple?

Jhan Moskowitz: Well my father and mother were survivors of the Holocaust so I was raised in a very strict Jewish home, not just religiously but culturally. We had “us” and “them”. My father said something really sad to me once when we talked about Jesus. He said “If Jesus knew the trouble he was going to make to the people of Israel, he would have never been born.” So Jesus was kind of looked upon - it wasn’t Jesus, it was his followers and the church and the anti-Semitism of Christians – that always obscured the person on who Jesus was. I don’t think a lot of Jewish people have ever dealt with who Jesus really is. They deal with a caricature of him. They deal with all of the rumors and things that people say. Think about it: my folks, their image of Christianity were people who wore crosses and turned the gas on my people, my grandmother and my grandfather. For them to deal with Jesus on an honest level of a Jewish Messiah living in Israel. Most people think Jesus was Italian and the gospel happened in Rome. The idea of a Jewish Messiah and a Jewish Jesus is not something that was current in Jewish thinking. He was alien so that was what I was taught. I want to say something at the outset. I think your Rabbi friend in your introduction really was telling the truth. I think the Judaism of the last thousand years or so is a Judaism that rejects the idea that God would become a man. I think the idea that incarnation, that Jesus is God is repugnant to Orthodox Judaism. It’s been so since the place called Yavne when the Jewish people after the destruction of the Temple codified what we call the norm of Judaism today. The question isn’t whether Judaism today repudiates whether God could become a man. The question is was there a belief in that during the time of Jesus that was Jewish. That’s really the issue that we should probably be talking about.

Dave Glover: Okay, Rabbi?

Rabbi Tovia Singer: Yeah, I think from the outset it’s important for your listeners to understand that I am an Orthodox rabbi. You mentioned it briefly. We don’t believe in movements or culture. The Bible is our foundation; that’s very important. The Scripture Tanakh – that’s our authority. We don’t have any other authority. So I would say that it’s very clear that your pastor growing up he had his beliefs and the rabbi at Jhan’s synagogue when he was a little boy had his beliefs but ask the question that goes something like this: what does the Bible say? What does the Scripture say? That’s the foundation of the Jewish faith. So yeah there’s no doubt that Jews for Jesus which is essentially a Baptist mission that’s predicated on converting Jews to Christianity founded on the doctrine of the Trinity, the idea of three Gods in one, that Messiah is somehow a human being. But what does the Bible say? In Scripture in the Book of Numbers in the Torah, it says that “God is not a man”. Now what do I do with a Jew? I’ve got a Bible on one side that says God is not a man and I’ve got Jews for Jesus screaming that God is a man and we should worship him. Isaiah chapter 11 which everyone agrees is talking about the Messiah and it describes in verse 2 and 3 that the Messiah will fear God. I want to say that again because I want to make sure that everybody on Interstate 70 can hear that. The Bible says in Isaiah 11:2-3 that the Messiah will literally fear God. Why would God fear God? Really it’s very important we have a discussion of what I believe or what Jhan believes or what Moishe Rosen believes or what your tech believes. But the question is “what is God’s opinion?” That is what we ask in Judaism. The idea of the Son of God is very important and is very ambiguous because Exodus 4:22 states explicitly that the Jewish people are God’s son, His first-born son. So are we all Jews God’s? No, it does not mean that at all. It means that we are followers of God. You talked a moment ago that 95-96% of Americans believe in God. Let’s talk about the 4% - the atheists. Many of them are Jewish, by the way, unfortunately. The atheists “Are you spiritual?” “Yes, I’m a very spiritual person.” But what does spiritual mean? It’s a very ambiguous term. So what we got to do is we use the Bible. That’s our authority; that’s our foundation. We look at Scripture to tell us what does a Messiah supposed to do. We open up Ezekiel chapter 37. That’s Tanakh, that’s God speaking there. The Bible tells us what’s the Messiah is supposed to do so we don’t have to guess by going to Chosen People ministries or some Assemblies of God group. We go to the Bible. That’s our authority.

Dave Glover: Jhan?

Jhan Moskowitz: May I respond?

Dave Glover: Yes, you may.

Jhan Moskowitz: Well first of all I commend you, Tovia. It’s a great thing that you’re saying we go to the Scriptures. Let’s be fair and honest, okay? The Jehovah’s Witnesses use the Scriptures. The Mormons use the Scriptures; even the Muslims use the Scriptures. Orthodox groups use the Scriptures. Fundamentalists use the Scriptures. We all appeal and we all say “You have your opinion but we believe what the Bible says” which has a certain ring or arrogance. The point I’m making is we’re all going to appeal to the Scripture. We’re all going to say that the Scripture is the basis that we understand it. The question is how we interpret the Scriptures. The very text you gave – which, by the way, I would also offer - also would have a different way of understanding them. Let me follow through with one of them. I think the New Testament clearly talks about a mystery. We have a mystery where here’s a person we think Scripture says has the attributes of God and yet he is thirsty, he says he had limited understanding or even worse, here’s the idea of how can God be separated from God.  “Why have you forsaken me?” You know the real answers to these things and if people want to pursue them, they can. But it’s unfair to just throw these texts out and say “Well this is the Biblical understanding and this is how it’s done and we have the answer.” I’m ready to wrestle with all of these with you and any other listener who’s there but a little bit of humility. I’m struggling. I think the point of Son of God and that’s where we started. Let’s go back to that. You’re right, Exodus does talk about Israel being called the sons of God. In the Book of Psalms chapter 2, we have what we call in fancy theological terms an enthronement psalm. It means that this psalm was probably written by either David for David or David for Solomon about when his son would become king. It’s reminiscent of some of the psalms or prose that were written when a new eastern king was being crowned. It talks about “this day I had begotten thee. This day thou art my son.” And then it says “Ask of me for the nations, I’ll give you the nations.” Then it says “Nations, you better pay homage to this person. You better bow down because there’s only refuge in him.” Now look, that psalm may have been written for King David or for Solomon but by the time it gets in the Scriptures, it means something different. The people who say the Scriptures together, the people who are the canoniclers under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit put that in the beginning of the book and they said something about “If you want to understand the Book of Psalms, you’ve got to understand Psalm 1 and 2. That’s kind of the introduction to everything.

Dave Glover: You are listening to Jhan Moskowitz there with the group Jews for Jesus and Rabbi Tovia Singer. He’s calling in from Israel. We’re going to take a break and we come back, we’ll continue this for the next 40 minutes. Is Jesus the Son of God? If not, why not? What are they looking for in a Messiah? We’ll take your phone calls - 314-969-9797, toll-free from anywhere 866-455-9797. Dave Glover Show will be right back. [After the break] Welcome back, Dave Glover Show just about 5:30 here. We’re talking about “Are Christians and Jew alike?” and the really most important question “Is Jesus the Son of God?” We talked about this kind of thing on the priest and rabbi once a month. Then when Rabbi Shmuel introduced me to the thought that according to Jewish thought, according to their interpretation of the Torah, the Messiah would not, was not and will not be a deity or supernatural being or certainly not the Son of God. That right there when someone shows up and says “I’m the Messiah”. “Really? Okay, are you the Son of God?” “Yes, I am.” “Move to the left. No, you’re not.” I’ve never had that thought in my head. I said we need to have the whole show on this. Jhan Moskowitz is joining us. He is with the organization Jews for Jesus. Rabbi Tovia Singer is joining us from Israel. He is the founder/director of Outreach Judaism. As I would expect, the phones have gone crazy on both sides of this issue. I believe Rabbi it’s your turn if you have something to respond to Jhan or lead us to a new thought, go right ahead.

Rabbi Tovia Singer: I’m not even sure what his point was. I don’t mean that in a derisive way. I say that with all due respect. I’m clueless at what the point is. In Psalm 2, it says that “You are my son and this day I begot you.” Let’s think about that Psalm 2:7 which Jhan quoted. If the Messiah, if that’s talking about the Messiah at all which is not there in the text at all, that’s why the rabbi’s work is so important – to elucidate the text – it says “On this day I have begotten you.” Now if this is talking about the Messiah, how could on this day God beget you but what was the day before? God is eternal. He has no beginning; He has no end. The fact is so important for the church to crystallize so it makes it appear that it talks about Jesus.

Dave Glover: Jhan and Tovia, let me stop you there because you’re both talking. I’m not sure if it’s because Rabbi is in Israel but you’re both talking at the same time and it appears you can’t hear each other so we have to be very, very careful with that. Once both of you start talking and you add me into it then no one can hear anything. So Rabbi, finish the whole point because we still have another half hour of air time and then we’ll go back to Jhan. 

Rabbi Tovia Singer: You know, this phone call is really a paradigm of what the situation is. The situation is that Jewish people, rabbis like myself are going to speak about the Bible and Christians – not normal Christians, that’s important for your listeners – the guys who are right now at the Arch in St. Louis, they’re not into this stuff Jews for Jesus. They go to their Presbyterian Church, they’re not trying to convert Jews. But I’m saying these fundamentalist Christians, they read text, they read verses in the Bible that just aren’t there. They’ve been altered. They’ve been mangled unfortunately by a fundamentalist church and then they expect Jewish people not to speak. I’m sitting here talking to you and teaching the Bible and Jhan wants to jump in. He wants to say “Hey, Rabbi stop. I want to explain to you what the Christians believe.” But the Bible says “On this day I begot you.” The Bible says that God is not a man. The Bible says that the Messiah is to fear God. Now God doesn’t fear anything so the text is so clear. What I encourage is and I’ll say this and then I’m going to be quiet and you can turn it over to Jhan or the listeners, I’m going to give a plug because our website is and anyone who wants to study these texts, that’s where you begin. What does the Bible say? What is God’s opinion? 

Dave Glover: Jhan, back to you.

Jhan Moskowitz: Okay first of all, give me two minutes because I need two minutes to explain this alright?

Dave Glover: You got it.

Jhan Moskowitz: First of all if you’re listening to Sting and Sting sings a song and the song is “Every step you take, every breath you make I’ll be watching you.” The original song that Sting sung is about a stalker. If I’m analyzing Sting’s song, it’s about a stalker. Years later, Puff Daddy takes part of that song and puts it in a tribute to Big E Small. That little ditty becomes about a benevolent ghost. The fact that he took something that existed, put it into something else and transformed its meaning into something else. I said it earlier and Tovia heard me, the first time that psalm was written it was about a king. Traditionally in the near east, when a king becomes a king and gets enthroned, everybody says “Yey, you’re like God’s son. He will protect you. God will take care of you.” It’s a traditional stuff that happened in Egypt, in Mesopotamia and certainly David was probably influenced. But the fact that that psalm now is put in the beginning in the Book of Psalms long after David is dead, in fact long after there’s a king during the postexilic time, we have to ask ourselves “What were the people who were writing the Book of Psalms thinking when they put that there? Is it just about a king?” No, no, no. The more you read the Bible, the more you read what the Bible has to say. The more you read about the different places that this king comes and he has universal control and he has universal peace. This is a remarkable individual. This is a Messianic hope that existed during the time of the second temple period or right before it. What do you think these Christians, these first Jews who believed Jesus were worshipping Zeus or Thor. They were Jews. Where did they get the idea of a Meshiah? Where did they get the idea of a unique son of God? Where did they get this idea? Did it just came out of nowhere? It was part of the Jewish milieu at the time. Now I admit and I told you from the very beginning that after 90 AD when the Pharisees took control of what the Orthodox Judaism was going to be, there was no other interpretation other than the Orthodox one which my friend Tovia has certainly acknowledged. He’s an Orthodox Jew. Within that system, there is no Son of God. There is no unique Meshiah. I’ll admit that but that doesn’t mean that before that time, within Judaism, within the many Judaisms that existed before the time of Jesus, there wasn’t the idea of a unique Messiah that wasn’t just the teacher of righteousness but that he was going to bring world peace, that he was going to convert the hearts of the sons to their fathers, that he was going to transform something and more importantly this was cryptic, that he might be a sin-bearer. Granted that it was not all over the place but there were places where it seems to indicate that before he could become a king and rule the world, he had to deal with the problem of sin. He had to deal with the problem of man being separated from God. 

Dave Glover: Rabbi, is that true what Jhan just said that according to your beliefs there would not be an individual human being messiah at all?

Rabbi Tovia Singer: No, not at all. It’s hard for me to hear when Jhan’s talking. Jhan, I need you to listen up on this because this is so important for you especially. The Bible tells us what the Messiah is supposed to accomplish. It’s not Rabbi Singer. If you notice, Dave throughout the conversation I never quoted any text from the first century. Every verse I quoted is straight from the Bible. That’s what Orthodox Judaism is, it’s based on the Bible. Let me continue quoting the Scripture. I don’t want to quote the Nicene Creed from the 4th century. I want to quote God. Ezekiel chapter 37 and Isaiah chapter 2, the Bible tells us the Messiah is going to bring about world peace. In Daniel 12:2, the Bible tells us very specifically “The Messianic age is going to bring about the resurrection of the dead.” The Bible tells us in Isaiah chapter 11 that in the days of the Messiah, “the whole world will know about God. It will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea”. Scripture tells us and check this out, Dave, the Bible tells us in Zechariah 8:23 that in the Messianic age, do you know what’s going to happen? 10 Gentiles of different languages, they’re going to grab the shirt of a Jew – that’s what the Bible says – and they’re going to say to the Jew – it doesn’t day a Baptist, it doesn’t say Jews for Jesus – they’re going to grab the shirt of a Jew and they’ll say “Take us with you; now we know that God is with you.” That’s what the Bible says. So there won’t be war. There’s going to be a worldwide knowledge of God. If you check the news, you’ll see Iran preparing to attack my country, the nation of Israel. You can see that men and women American servicemen are dying in the Persian Gulf, in Iraq and Afghanistan as we’re speaking right now and terrorists are running over Jewish cars with bulldozers here in Jerusalem. My Bible says that when the Messiah comes, all that is going to come to an end. Not only that, I live directly in front of the Temple Mount. I can look out my window and see Dome of the Rock and I see al-Aqsa – two big Islamic institutions that are sitting there. My Bible says that when the Messiah comes, read Ezekiel 37-48, that there’ll be a temple that will stand there. Not only did Jesus not accomplish any of these things, in fact the opposite occurred after the advent of Christianity. Not only wasn’t there peace but the temple was destroyed and thousands and thousands of Jews were killed. The resurrection of the dead and the knowledge of God did not flourish during the advent of Christianity. The Jews were exiled throughout the Roman empire and the knowledge of God was diminished. Here’s the key: Judaism is about the Bible, what Scripture says. It’s not about Nicene Creed. It’s not about what the Baptist church says. It’s not about Assemblies of God. What is God’s opinion? That’s what I’m quoting.

Dave Glover: When we come back, we’ll let Jhan respond to that. I have a specific question for the Rabbi. You’re tuned in to The Dave Glover Show – very, very interesting conversation going on with Jhan Moskowitz for Jews for Jesus and Rabbi Tovia Singer joining us from Israel. Is Jesus the Son of God? If not, what are the Jews looking for in the Messiah? We’ll be right back. [After the break] Welcome back. Jhan Moskowitz for Jews for Jesus and Rabbi Tovia Singer joining us from Israel talking about the Messiah, whether in your belief system that would be Jesus of Nazareth or be someone who has yet to come onto the scene. Rabbi, I have a question for you. As you were describing the things that will come to pass at the appearance of the Messiah, those sound – and I understand it’s God and God does the impossible – but someone sitting here in St. Louis reading the newspapers and seeing what’s going on, it seems so impossible. I know you’re a rabbi, not a fortune teller but how can we get from Ahmadinejad ready to bomb Israel and the price of oil and all this craziness to a time of peace? How do we get from A to B?

Rabbi Tovia Singer: I want to share with you a basic Jewish concept, Dave. If you bow before the God of Israel, you fear no one. That’s the foundation of Judaism. Look at me. I’m a Jew. I live in the land of Israel. How many Jews do we have here in Israel? About 6 million, right? We’re surrounded by 200 million Arabs,  22 Arab countries surrounding us, 57 Islamic countries all they’re dreaming about is destroying the people and the land of Israel. But we have a Bible, Deuteronomy 20:1 God says “Look, I know you got great armies around you and it seems impossible” a little Jewish state the size of New Jersey 26,000 sq. km. you’ve got lakes bigger than the state of Israel. God said “Don’t be afraid of them if they’ve got many horses and they’ve got huge chariots.” You know why we’re not afraid of Jews for Jesus or Hamas or Ahmadinejad because the Bible tells us that the God of Israel is with you and in fact, the Almighty tells us in the Book of Genesis chapter 12 that “Those Gentiles that bless Israel, I will bless you.” So I ask you an honest question. When the Jewish people went to war against the Arab world in June 1967 surrounded by 15 Arab countries and in 6 days we destroyed the enemy completely, can anybody at West Point ever figure that one out? Do you understand how it’s possible for a country that basically is about 50 miles wide and 200 miles long, how is it possible to stand up to serious threat? Would you want to live here? I know you’re concerned about illegal immigration from Mexico. Could you imagine if you were in St. Louis and you were surrounded by Syria, by Lebanon, by Egypt, by Iran. That’s where we stand. The Jewish state stands between the Islamic world and the United States of America. You’re surrounded by two oceans. You’re right, the Jewish people were a people of a miracle. We’re also a people of faith and we believe without any question that the God of Israel is with us. In the Bible Ezekiel 38 tells us Iran/Persia is going to rise up against the chosen of Israel and Zechariah 12 says “He’s going to be with you; He’s going to protect you.” So I can, Dave, guarantee you that St. Louis is safe.   

Jhan Moskowitz: Tovia needs to answer this question and the question is this: I praise God for His faithfulness to the Jewish people and the preservation of the Jewish people. But the question is when the Messiah comes, he’s not going to be supernatural. He’s not going to be a remarkable individual other than just a Messiah. How is he going to bring world peace? Is he just going to go abracadabra, wave a wand and everybody raises and everybody’s just going to be nice? You talk about the beautiful things the Meshiah is going to do but you haven’t told us how he’s going to do it. If he’s just a teacher of righteousness or a great rabbi, how is he going to change people’s hearts? I want to show you something. When you said to me before after the coming of the Meshiah Yeshua Jesus, the earth was not filled with the glory of God. Let me ask you a question: long before Yeshua came, most of the world was bowing down to rocks. They were pagans. With the advent of Yeshua and one of the great medieval rabbis even talked about this and recognizes the fact that through the coming of Yeshua, those people that were bowing down to rocks now worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They now believe in the one who created the universe and have faith in Him. The key point here is this: we believe the Meshiah came to first deal with the problem of sin because until you deal with the man’s heart, his hand won’t matter. You have to change his heart before you change his hand. That’s what Yeshua came to do. He kept quoting Isaiah. Great book I love it. Isaiah 52:13 talks about a servant. We can argue who that servant is but that servant certainly suffers and that servant suffers to make atonement, a kippur for his people. You know what? Most people read Isaiah 52:13 and following through 53 and they just go “Gee, sounds like Jesus.” Speaking of which, look this is an argument or a conversation that’s going to go long after 6:00 – Go read both sites. Definitely read Tovia’s site – it’s got some very interesting things. Then go read our site and see what we say. It’s going to take more than a 10-minute sound bite back and forth to talk about what’s real here. This is a real issue. I love you, Tovia. I appreciate your Biblical love of the Bible. But again, it’s a Bible that you determined what it means at 90 AD at Yavne. I quote Old Testament passages and I talk about a world before the Orthodox the Pharisees took over. It’s just as Jewish as the Pharisees’ world. The fact of the matter was that there was an idea of a very unique Meshiah who was going to come, a very unique Meshiah who was going to suffer for the sins of humanity and then establish world peace. 

Dave Glover: Tovia, we have about two minutes left. They’re yours. Go ahead and tell us what you need to tell us and tell us about Outreach Judaism.

Rabbi Tovia Singer: First of all, everything is free on our site. You can download my lectures that go throughout the Bible. I don’t quote from 90 and I don’t quote from the year 200 and I don’t quote from the year 325 CE which was the Council of Nicaea where the doctrine of the Trinity was declared as the orthodoxy of Christianity which Jews for Jesus embraces. 

Jhan Moskowitz: Amen.

Rabbi Tovia Singer: Let me say this, I hope no Christian will be offended by this but Jhan talked about how wonderful Christianity has been for the Jewish people so I’m going to say something – it’s really sarcastic – but I’m going to say it. We’d like to thank the church for the crusades and the Inquisition and so on, the doctrine of the Trinity. Thanks go out there. It’s a question of what the Bible says, what does Scriptures say. What Orthodox rabbis encourage the Jewish and Gentiles, go to the Bible. Go back to the original text. What does Scripture really say? What is God’s opinion? I want to thank also all the folks out there in the United States who support the land of Israel, who put their hope in the Jewish state even though logically, we don’t have a chance. The state has a blessing from above. Dave, I want to thank you for giving me a chance to join you here on the air. 

Dave Glover: Thank you, Tovia. Thank you, Jhan, very much. 

Jhan Moskowitz: It’s my privilege. Tovia, stay safe. Till the next time.

Rabbi Tovia Singer: When you come to Israel, Jhan, come visit me. We’ll have a Bible discussion.

Jhan Moskowitz: Of course.

Dave Glover: We’ll be back. [After the break] So how did you like the debate between the guy from Jews for Jesus and the professor from Israel? How did you like that?

Unnamed Person 1: I thought it was excellent.

Tom: It was a trouncing.

Unnamed Person 1: One thing I really thought that was good about it and I spoke to Rabbi Singer afterwards that you kind of stayed out of it. You kind of just left them both. He really loved that because it’s very rare he told me that he gets that opportunity to just have a real discussion without it being one-sided.

Dave Glover: I have very few rules but one that I always followed in broadcasting: never get between two Jews when Jesus is on the line. Just let them go.

Unnamed Person 1: It always causes some excitement usually.

Dave Glover: But you know what, though, honestly this could sound like something insulting but we’re buddies so it won’t. Both of them, both gentlemen -  Tom and I were cringing, we were absolutely cringing and I’ve noticed this with Jewish friends when I was in Law School, Washington, the whole thing – have this ability maybe you grow up with it, maybe it’s the way you debate or argue, but have this ability to just knife into the heart, you know.

Tom: In a kind way.

Dave Glover: In a kind way. “With all due respect, you are going to burn in hell for a thousand lifetimes, my friend.” I mean they were clocking each other. 

Unnamed Person 1: Remember one time we were having a discussion here. Somebody called in and said maybe we can just kind of make everything feel the same. I remember that you said this to him and I feel the same way that I’d much rather have real good, honest debate about something and try to get to the bottom of it. There’s nothing wrong with debating. I think that it was great. If you feel strongly about something, you have to argue about it.

Dave Glover: The one tactic that Rabbi Singer took over and over again that the guy never called him on – I wasn’t about to because I don’t want him turning on me – was when he’d say “Listen, you can have your whole Church of Nicaea, you can have your 4th century crap, if you want to know what God thinks, let’s go back to the Torah shall we?”

Unnamed Person 1: One of the reasons he keeps doing that is the other person Jhan who I don’t know kept saying something about the Pharisees changed things. Rabbi Singer’s original approach is he quoted a verse from the Torah so kept coming back to “You can’t talk about the Pharisees. I’m quoting you something which actually comes from the Torah.” Anyway, I thought it was an exciting discussion. The reason I got you Rabbi Singer there is because he’s just the best at that. That’s what he does and he knows how to do it well. 

Dave Glover: There’s something in the law - I think it’s called the best evidence rule. It’s basically that, nothing genius. If you and Tom make a contract and here it is and it exists, I don’t care what you say. I don’t care what Tom says. Let’s see what the document says. That’s sort of what you’re getting at. “You know what? Rather than what anyone said, whatever treaties they wrote, let’s just read it.”

Unnamed Person 1: He’s saying that this idea about how we look at the Messiah was changed at sometime. Rabbi Singer is saying everybody sources themselves back to the Bible and so if you have a verse there, you have to deal with that verse. If you can show a different understanding of that verse, fine. But first, you have to at least explain the verse.

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